Dinosaurs and Humans Living Together? The LSDYEC Apologetic of Ken Ham

Recently I was reminded of just what an important role dinosaurs play in forming the public, and especially kids, perception of the age of the Earth.  Over the past two months I had the opportunity to attend two talks about dinosaurs both of which were aimed specifically at kids.  The first was a talk by Dr. Jack Horner of Jurassic Park fame but more importantly a researcher who has discovered and named many species of dinosaurs from the western US.    The second was by Bryan Osborne of Answers in Genesis (AiG) the most prominent proponent of Literal Six-Day Young-Earth Creationism (LSDYEC – a shout out to Dr. William Evans for the longer but more accurate acronym).  The latter talk was part of a larger AiG conference which I attended including the sessions for school-age kids.   In the future I will have more to say about the conference including contrasting the style and substance of the talks of Dr. Horner and Mr. Osborne.

Today, I want to look at Osborn’s response to the question of when dinosaurs lived which is that they lived alongside humans as little as 4000 years ago.

Dinosaur Origins:  Millions of years or thousands of years ago?

When did Dinosaurs live and how did they die? Could there be a more striking contrast between conventional theories of the Earth’s history and the young earth creationist’s hypothesis of origins than is seen in the answers provided to these questions?

The consensus of modern scientific studies is that dinosaurs lived on Earth for millions of years before going extinct about 66 million years ago.  In stark contrast to this message LSDYECs promote a view that Dinosaurs were created a little more than 6000 years ago on the same day, literally, that man was created.  Dinosaurs therefore lived contemporaneously with man from their time of creation, were preserved on Noah’s ark during the global flood, and then “faded” into extinction several hundred years after that flood or about 4000 years ago.

An slide from early in Osborne's kids talk about dinosaurs. Here he was referring to the early relationship of man and dinosaurs. In their original state they only ate plants and would have had no fear of man. Image: Joel Duff

A slide from Osborne’s kids talk about dinosaurs at a recent AiG conference which I attended. Here he was referring to the early relationship of man and dinosaurs. In their original state they only ate plants and would have had no fear of man. Image: Joel Duff

Could these two views of Earth’s history be more different?

LSDYECs know that dinosaurs have long been one of the most vivid and powerful evidences of an ancient Earth.  They know the question “where did all the dinosaurs go?” will be asked every time they talk about a young earth and the origins of life.  In response, they have taken a pro-active approach including building entire talks around the theme of dinosaurs.  They have embraced dinosaurs as ambassadors of a young earth, telling their audience that dinosaurs attest to a young earth and support their interpretation of Genesis.

Here are some examples:  Mr. Osborne stated in the outset of his talk “At Answers in Genesis we love dinosaurs. I love dinosaurs.”  Ken Ham’s tweet this week (11/16/15): “Dinosaur fossils aren’t detrimental to the biblical creation position. They are actually a creationist’s best friend http://ow.ly/UD0iz.”  The linked article by Dr. Snelling of Answering in Genesis states regarding when dinosaurs lived:

Sadly, most Christians don’t even know the truth about dinosaurs. Each year Liberty University, for example, surveys its online students before they take the creation course “The History of Life.” Although many of these students grew up in conservative churches and affirm that the Bible is infallible and Adam was real, when asked if “dinosaurs and man lived at the same time,” fewer than half strongly agree at the beginning of the course (but that number rises to 85% by the end of the term!).

Just what do the students in this class learn that causes them to come around to the belief that dinosaurs and man lived at the same time?  I don’t know exactly what Liberty University teaches their students but I do know they are using resources from Answers in Genesis.  The line-of-thought presented in those materials is well-illustrated by the presentation that Osborne made a few weeks ago.  In that talk Osborne provided three lines of evidence that he and all LSDYECS use to support their claim that dinosaurs lived with humans:

  • Genesis 1: Starting with the assumption that the 6 days of creation represent literal solar-days only 6000 years ago they believe that humans and dinosaurs must have been created no more than 12 hours apart from one another.  Day six of the creation account in Genesis 1 does not refer directly to dinosaurs but the inference from historical evidence (ie. bones) is that dinosaurs once roamed the Earth.  It is further assumed that references to Adam naming all of the animals would have necessitated that he had contact with dinosaurs and gave names to at least 50 different kinds.
  • Job 40 and 41: They point to the book of Job as providing a direct description of dinosaurs (Job 40) and fire-breathing dragons (Job 41).  The behemoth that God speaks of they say must describe a dinosaur similar to a plant-eating brontosaurus.
  • Eye-witness reports: They point to extra-biblical historical evidence of pictures drawn of ancient beasts that look like dinosaurs.  Dragon-legends are also held up as evidence of the existence of fire-breathing dragons living on Earth after Noah’s flood.

The above make up the entire body of “proof” that dinosaurs lived contemporaneously with humans.

Some may have heard of reports of preserved dinosaur footprints mixed with human footprints in the rocks of Glen Rose, Texas but these have been discounted by all but some outer fringe creationists and are no longer used as evidence of human interactions with dinosaurs by AiG and ICR. (see reference Human Fossil Footprints: Exploring the Fringes of Creationism)

Some may have heard of reports of preserved dinosaur footprints mixed with human footprints in the rocks of Glen Rose, Texas but these have been discounted by all but some outer fringe creationists and are no longer used as evidence of human interactions with dinosaurs by AiG and ICR. (see my article:  Human Fossil Footprints: Exploring the Fringes of Creationism)

The first evidence results from a long list of assumptions about how the Bible should be read.  Without a commitment to these assumptions there would be no reason to feel compelled interpret the geological evidence of dinosaurs into a time frame that included humans.

The second evidence provided by LSDYECs is the only one that claims to be direct Biblical eye-witness testimony of dinosaurs living contemporaneously with humans.  However, this is a modern interpretation of this verse and is not accepted by most biblical scholars past or present.  I would direct you to this article for a more plausible and Biblically-consistent interpretation.

The third evidence comes from extra-biblical references to flying dragons and great beasts in ancient lore and painted or carved depictions of dinosaur-like animals.

Osborne presented all three of these evidences to the kids in his audience.  With respect to his audience, I felt his most effective slides were those which showed presumed dinosaurs drawn by people who had witnessed dinosaurs in recent, after the Noahic Flood, history.  To the untrained eye, which definitely includes the kids in the audience and their parents, this was powerful testimony of dinosaurs living with humans.

But just how convincing is this evidence?  Not convincing at all if you spend any time looking more closely.

Let me provide just one example.  Below is a picture I took of one of the slides that Osborne presented in his talk.  Notice the text and the image.  After talking about how people have reported seeing dinosaurs, which were called dragons before the term dinosaur was coined, Osborne showed this slide and asked all the kids what they thought those long-necked creatures could be and of course all the kids yelled out in unison: dinosaurs!

Image presented to K-6 graders at an Answers in Genesis conference showing that dinosaurs and man lived together. Clearly a bad interpretation but also inconsistent with other parts of the seminar in which dinosaurs were said to have died due to the Ice Age which would have been before the Egyptians produced this pottery.

Image presented to K-6 graders at an Answers in Genesis conference showing that dinosaurs and man lived together. Clearly a bad interpretation but also inconsistent with other parts of the seminar in which dinosaurs were said to have died due to the Ice Age which would have been before the Egyptians produced this pottery.

Are these really depictions of dinosaurs? To suggest they are seems very naïve since a closer inspection reason them to have little in common with everything we know about dinosaurs. Yet, this image has been used in thousands of LSDYEC talks and innumerable articles.  I just wrote about this very same image being used in an ICR meme a few months ago (Can you spot the dinosaurs in this image?).

Notice the text highlights “long-necked” dragon.  Osborne didn’t show a close-up image and he drew the inference that the simplest explanation for the images was that Egyptians knew about dinosaurs.  Below is a closer view of that image.  Does Osborne really believe that this is one of the best examples of evidence that humans lived with dinosaurs?

The Narmer Palette, also known as the Great Hierakonpolis Palette or the Palette of Narmer, is a significant Egyptian archeological find, dating from about the 31st century BC, containing some of the earliest hieroglyphic inscriptions ever found. Source: Wikipedia

The Narmer Palette, also known as the Great Hierakonpolis Palette or the Palette of Narmer, is a significant Egyptian archeological find, dating from about the 31st century BC, containing some of the earliest hieroglyphic inscriptions ever found. Source: Wikipedia

Let’s see, feet of a cat, tail of a cat, hip structure of a cat/mammal, jaw of a cat, eyes of a cat, nose of a cat, ears of a cat.  A long-necked dragon? I think not.  Sure, it has a long neck but that is the only characteristic that is similar to a dinosaur.  Egyptian art is full of fanciful and chimeric creatures. The exaggeration of characteristic, such as the neck, of an animal is not uncommon. To believe this image represents dinosaurs is to ignore most of the data and the most obvious interpretation of that data and choose to elevate one piece of data, a very general one at that, over all the rest? This is like taking one unclear verse from the Bible and then raising ones interpretation of that to trump all the other clearer texts. This is just bad hermeneutics and bad observational science.

He showed several additional images all of which are equally as dubious to those that know more about the details of those images.  I think it is likely that Osborne is probably completely unaware of the facts or “observational evidence” with respect to these presumed dinosaur images because he has never investigated them himself. Clearly he simply trusts others at AiG to provide the images and text for most of his talks. Unfortunately his faith is misplaced with respect to this image and many others.

The kids left this talk with a clear imagine in their minds of Egyptians with pet dinosaurs.  To them this was probably the most convincing evidence that dinosaurs lived not long ago.  Ironically, while the AiG speakers start with the Biblical evidence, they really emphasize the extra-biblical images as supporting the truth of the Bible.  With so much emphasis put on the “evidence” from these pictures as supporting the truth of the Bible what will happen if any of these kids look at that evidence more closely in the future?

Another image from a page of Ken Ham's "DInosaurs in Eden." In this case we are being shown a scene not only after Eden but after Noah's flood at the time of the tower of Babel. Here he is depicting friendly Tyranasaurus-like dinosaurs as tamed beasts living in harmony with people. The implication here is that 400 years after the flood dinosaurs where still living with people.

Another image from a page of Ken Ham’s “Dinosaurs in Eden.” In this case we are being shown a scene not only after Eden but after Noah’s flood at the time of the tower of Babel. Here he is depicting friendly Tyranasaurus-like dinosaurs as tamed beasts living in harmony with people. The implication here is that 400 years after the flood dinosaurs where still living with people.

Comments

  1. jesuswithoutbaggage says:

    From that last picture, I am sorry to see that they enslaved a relative of Jar Jar Binks to pull a wagon and have put a funny red hat on him.

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  2. Regarding the evidence presented for young dinosaurs, I also used to hear repeated claims that there were discoveries of dinosaur and human footprints together, which “evolutionary” scientists simply ignored because it didn’t fit their worldview. If I remember my reading of Numbers’ The Creationists, he said the first edition of Genesis Flood hyped up some ambiguous fossil evidence (“Paluxey tracks”) that later editions walked back after pushback from their source… (I haven’t yet obtained my own copies to compare) As far as I can tell, today’s YEC groups now advocate for abandoning this argument. Still, the legends live on among laypeople. I now wonder if it all truly originated from that single point and how much less effective the book and the ensuing movement would have been without that striking claim.

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    • I still here the claim quite frequently but it doesn’t come from AIG, ICR or CMI anymore. However, there are still many fringe creationist speakers that promote the human and dino tracks evidence. Where I see the claim most common is in Facebook comments.

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  3. Reblogged this on Peddling and Scaling God and Darwin and commented:
    An excellent account of the creationist nonsense of Ken Ham. It is unbelievable that anyone could put out this stuff. I would suggest that any clergy or potential clergy holding such tripe should be barred from office. I wonder how many priests in the Church of England would have to go!!

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  4. darwinsbulldog says:
  5. If the Egyptians indeed used dinosaurs as pets / beasts of burden, we should find dinosaur bones in archeological digs (of which there have been plenty in Egypt, I believe). The LSDYEC (don’t think that will catch on) on the one hand claim people were riding/using dinosaurs, and on the other hand explain the fact that human and dinosaur remains are never found in the same context by a theory that puts dinosaur in different ecological zones. Contradictions are never a big deal in LSDYEC thinking.

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    • Ah, you have summed up my next post in far fewer words that I ever could. Exactly right, we have millions of remains of mammoths. In the middle east mammoth bones were revered by communities. The ancients collected weird stuff like huge bones all the time. The Egyptians surely would have used these bones or preserved them in some way. And you are right, in the very same talk he showed this picture he talked about dinosaurs living apart from humans which is why we don’t find their bone together. A very strange self-contradictory talk but the audience ate it up.

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  6. Hmm… LSD young-earth creationism — kinda has a good, accurate-sounding ring to it.

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  7. That quote of Snelling’s that you provide is very revealing – for him the ‘truth’ (about dinosaurs) is the conclusion you reach from ultra-literalism when assessing Bible texts notably Genesis, and NOT the reality that has been revealed by the investigative scientific method that has revealed NO evidence for human-dinosaur co-existence (for such zealot Christians who detest the findings of science that reality must be RUBBISHED in favour of the alternative and infallibly true ‘biblical worldview’ – and it starts with rubbishing it to KIDS).
    As for Osborne, Bible verses are not scientific evidence (besides the Bible never refers to any giant land animals being created) and a few ancient drawings and legends whilst interesting are scarcely proof of ‘recent dinosaur extinction’. The slide image, and how Osborne reportedly made use of it, is very interesting (AiG claim to abhor ‘brainwashing’). Also, Richard Owen (a creationist and scientist) who coined the term dinosaur, meaning ‘terrible lizard’, was responding NOT to paintings or to St George legends but to FOSSILS that could not be identified as creatures known to be alive and co-existent with him and his peers.
    If dinosaurs lived in different ‘ecological zones’ but during our species’ presence on the planet, a pair of dinosaurs still apparently ‘came to’ Noah in order to board his ark (Genesis 7).

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  8. That picture of people riding dinosaurs could only have been made by someone with no knowledge of history. Why are they using saddles, for example? Those weren’t invented until the 6th century BCE or thereabouts.

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    • And the dinosaurs are mixed with camels, which were domesticated 9th century BCE. Does Ken Ham really think camels, dinosaurs, and people were traipsing about together during the late Iron Age?

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  9. It looks like Dinotopia!

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  10. Thanks for this article. I am already an old earth creationist, so didnt come here looking for arguments to refute. What caught my eye was the stats on that Liberty course. I am a student in their Divinity School, and we use Millard Erickson´s book for Systematic Theology, which one could argue is the backbone of the whole degree. In that book Erickson leans towards old earth creationism, so I am surprised if there is an undergrad course which so staunchly stands by young earth creationism… could their be a flaw in the statistics or methods they used for getting their data? Here is the link to the course syllabus: https://www.liberty.edu/media/3415/courseguides/CRST290_Syllabus.pdf

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    • Thanks for your comment. Fascinating information. It looks like the materials used are 100% YEC so the statistics may not be that surprising. I was surprised to learn that all students at Liberty have to take this course. Thanks for the link to the syllabus. Looks like quite a rigorous course though unfortunately it is full of misinformation.

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  11. Instead of your Christianity Today link as a useful “explanation” of the Job passages, may I suggest you look at http://benstanhope.blogspot.com.uy/2013/04/why-dinosaurs-are-not-in-bible.html (including the reader comments–especially Mr. Babinski’s). But for a nice, broad-based EXEGETICAL critique of the entire AiG view, check out Stanhope’s http://benstanhope.blogspot.com.uy/2013/06/a-seminary-student-visits-creation.html.

    Love your scientific analysis, but I’m afraid Stanhope is correct: there is too much truly awful “exegesis” on all sides of this YE-OE “debate”!

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    • Thanks for the links. I was in a hurry when I found that link to Christianity Today and I knew there were better resources so I appreciate you adding them here. I may go back and edit a note into the post.

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