We are currently in the midst of an extinction crisis. Species are disappearing at an ever-accelerating pace. It is striking that not long ago the idea that any species could go extinct was unthinkable. Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon (1707-1788) was one of the first to suggest that extinction was a possibility. But during Leclerc’s lifetime, the critic could always claim that we simply hadn’t sufficiently searched out the earth to find the living members of those species observed in the fossil record. Not long after, Georges Cuvier (1769-1832) made detailed observations of the remains of mammoths and concluded that they were a different species from living elephants and that it was unlikely that any were still alive. Combined with the discovery of dinosaur and sea reptile fossils (plesiosaurs, mosasaurs and ichthyosaurs), the idea that many kinds of organisms that had lived in the past were truly extinct today became firmly established.
Today, paleontologists agree that 99% of all species that have ever lived on earth are extinct. If that is true, the millions of species alive today are but a tiny fraction of the total diversity of life over earth’s history.
Extinction and the Young-earth Timeline of Life on Earth
Young-earth creationists (YECs) also believe that most species that have ever existed are now extinct. In striking contrast to standard theory, they believe that God made every “kind” of organism over a 72-hour period about 6000 years ago. All the diversity of organisms that would ever have existed was present at the beginning, though they believe members of each “kind” had since divided into species that were adapted to particular environments. About 1500 years after their creation, all life on earth experienced a cataclysmic event—a global flood—that killed 99.99% of living things. However, representatives of each air-breathing land vertebrate kind were preserved on Noah’s Ark. Though the full diversity of the original kinds (however see footnote 1) were preserved on the Ark, this did not prevent a subsequent massive reduction in the diversity of life. Soon after departing their vessel of salvation YECs propose that more than half of all the diversity of kinds that God formed in the beginning went extinct including tens of thousands of species that “hyper-evolved” from pairs of animals on the ark. (footnote 2)
Oddly, we find that the YEC view of biological origin and diversity includes God killing trillions of animals though saving representatives of each “kind.” But then after preserving every kind of animal that He had created for 1500 years from Creation to Flood and then preserving them through that Flood, more than half went extinct in a short period of time. We will explore the YEC extinction pattern illustrated in the table below a bit later. First though, let’s look at the YECs’ problem of extinction by examining the history of the pterosaurs.
What is the Young-earth natural history of Pterosaurs?
There at least 75 and possibly 200 or more genera of pterosaurs identified in the fossil record to date, with more being discovered each year. The known fossils have been organized by palaeontologists into 25 families of pterosaurs. At the Ark Encounter, a themed attraction that includes a life-sized Noah’s Ark, there is a sign that list all the “kinds” of animals they propose Noah preserved on the Ark during a global flood just 4350 years ago. They place the pterosaurs into 18 “kinds.” These “kinds” of animals can be thought of as a classification group roughly at the familial level—like canine or feline families of mammals—and are thought to be the “kinds” of animals that God created during the days of creation about 6000 years ago. These “kinds” do not share a common ancestor but were created separately from one another though they may share many “design elements.” For example, all the pterodactyl-type pterosaurs are one “kind” or family of pterosaurs. Hence, when they refer to pterosaurs, they are applying a collective name for 18 (it is not clear to me how this number was chosen by YECs) separately-created forms of living things that rapidly diversified (speciated via evolutionary mechanisms) into hundreds of species, prior to their all becoming extinct.
When a YEC says that pterosaurs are extinct, they are expressing confidence in the fact that no member of at least 18 families are observed to exist today. So when and why did they go extinct? The YEC believes that hundreds of species of pterosaurs must have been alive at the moment the global flooding event commenced about 4350 years ago. Otherwise, how would their remains be left for us to find in those Noahic Flood deposits? But they don’t believe that the Flood could have caused the “kinds” to go extinct because God had said that Noah was to bring two of every “kind” of vertebrate land animal onto the ark and this would have included representatives of all 18 kinds of pterosaurs.
After the flood waters abated, about 4350 years ago, pairs left the ark entering a new world with no vertebrate animals on land other than those that had been preserved on the ark. But what happened to them after that?
Apparently all 18 pterosaur kinds didn’t find the post-Flood world very inviting. We have no evidence that pterosaurs survived after stepping off the Ark. There is no fossil record attesting to their post-Flood existence despite the abundant evidence of hundreds of species of pterosaurs in what are claimed by YECs to be a Flood fossil record. It is an odd extinction pattern, to say the least, given that each of these kinds of animals, which exhibit wildly different shapes, sizes, and diets, are claimed to have been created independently by God during the creation week. Why would all of such different kinds of animals have immediately gone extinct in the post-diluvial world—after God having commanded Noah to collect and preserve them from destruction on the Ark? It would be difficult to argue that 18 separately-created animals would have the same deficiency precluding survival in the new post-diluvial world.
Inexplicable YEC extinction patterns go beyond Pterosaurs
But the strangeness of the YEC extinction pattern doesn’t stop here. Let’s contrast this pattern—thousands of species present in Flood deposited rocks and no evidence of their existence after the Flood, despite having survived the Flood—with other groups of organisms. The Ark Encounter considers the animals we call bats to be the collective name of 25 separately created flying mammals who all share some similar features (thought not due to common ancestry).
All 25 kinds of bats must have existed before the Flood since they were created on the 6th day (or the 5th day if you classify them with the birds as “flying things”). All 25 kinds therefore must have been on Noah’s Ark. What evidence do we observe as to when bats lived on earth? The fossil record of bats stands in stark contrast to that of pterosaurs. All bat fossils are found in what the majority of what YECs claim are “post-Flood” rocks or rocks that were formed in the period after the animals left the Ark. As such, these must be the descendants of the pairs or animals that Noah preserved for repopulating the world. In fact, the Ark Encounter recognizes that seven kinds of bats are extinct and only known from fossils, but these fossil kinds are only found in post-Flood rocks.
Why is there no physical evidence that any bats were killed and preserved as fossils during or before a global Flood? There is a distinct gap in the fossil record between the last (the most recent) pterosaur fossil in the fossil record and the first (the oldest) bat fossil. The point is that no bat has ever been found with a pterosaur and all pterosaurs fossils (tens of thousands of them) are found in what YECs say are “Flood” rocks.
There is no a priori reason to believe that pterosaurs should not be preserved in post-Flood events. And on the other side, bats are very fragile and would not be expected to be preserved except under very special conditions which, ironically, YECs often claim would only have been present during a global flood. The YEC should predict that bats fossils would be found throughout the Flood fossil record and should be less prevalent in post-flood rocks, but we find the very opposite instead.
We could provide hundreds of additional problematic patterns within the fossil record for YECs, but we’ll provide just one more example for now: What about carnivores? YECs say there are at least 12 different “kinds” of carnivores including canines, felines, bears, weasels, hyenas, etc. Every species of all of these kinds of carnivores are known solely from post-Flood rocks and thus would represent species that evolved after leaving Noah’s Ark. But if all 12 of these kinds existed from the days of creation how did any member of any of these 12 kinds avoid being preserved in the flood rocks when millions of dinosaurs and mammal-like synapsids and thousands of pterosaurs all were preserved in those Flood rocks?
YEC propose massive biodiversity losses due to recent extinctions
Pterosaurs are just the tip of the iceberg of what is a rather shocking outcome of the YEC understanding of the history of biological diversity. By my count (see table below) using what the Ark Encounter lists of extinct and living “kinds,” 54% (754 kinds!) of all the land vertebrate animal kinds that God created have gone extinct since the catastrophic global Flood 4350 years ago. Yes, YECs believe we co-exist with less than half of the kinds of animals that lived with Adam and Eve and through the time of Noah. And remember that “kinds” are the equivalent to families of organisms. Losing a kind today would be like saying that all canines, felines, finches, or great apes suddenly disappeared.
Each of these families includes dozens or hundreds of species and so if we talk about species extinctions then the YEC believes that fantastically high rates of extinction have occurred only a few thousands years ago and possibly within only a few decades or few hundred years.
Combined with the common YEC claim that the world is “running down” due to mutations and other effects of sin’s corruption of nature, it may not be surprising to many YECs that the diversity of life is being lost from this world. However, the tremendous loss of species and entire “kinds” of animals a few thousand years ago and continued losses today should cause the young-earth advocate to wonder about God’s purpose in these extinctions and what the future may hold.
The well-known evangelical preacher John MacArthur speaking about Christians responsibility for the environment:
“The earth we inhabit is not a permanent planet. It is, frankly, a disposable planet–it is going to have a very short life. It’s been around six thousand years or so–that’s all–and it may last a few thousand more. And then the Lord is going to destroy it.
I’ve told environmentalists that if they think humanity is wrecking the planet, wait until they see what Jesus does to it. Peter says God is going to literally turn it in on itself in an atomic implosion so that the whole universe goes out of existence (2 Peter 3:7-13).
This earth was never ever intended to be a permanent planet–it is not eternal. We do not have to worry about it being around tens of thousands, or millions, of years from now because God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth. Understanding those things is important to holding in balance our freedom to use, and responsibility to maintain, the earth.”
Maybe this is why some YECs are not impressed with, particularly concerned by, or even acknowledge the current extinction crisis that scientists have been reporting to the public. After all, if the current rate of species loss is far less than the extinction rates just a few thousand years ago when, potentially, tens of thousands of species were going extinct each year, why be too concerned about hundreds of species going extinct today?
It is pretty clear what John MacArthur believes the future hold and I expect that many, though not all, YECs ascribe to a similar view. One has to wonder, if extinction can happen so rapidly and recently and they believe that speciation is not occurring at the same rates as extinction then they must believe that the future is rather bleak. The planet seems destined to become less and less biologically diverse even if humans were to do their utmost to protect biological diversity–which is rarely part of the YEC agenda. In fact we already know that domestic animals—most of which only can survive because we care for them—now far exceeds wild animals. If we combine current rates of extinction combined with YEC theoretical expectations we might wonder what the world will look like in the not so distant future when 50% more of the earth’s biodiversity is lost.
For the young-earth advocate, higher rates of past and present extinction rates without at least offsetting origins of new species and new biological novelties can only point to a future of rapidly decreasing biological diversity leading to a world that has lost much of the glory of the original creation or even the pre-Flood world.
Footnote 1:It is unclear to me that YECs must believe that every “kind” of air-breathing land vertebrate that God made was preserved on the Ark. Why couldn’t some “kinds” of animals that God created have gone extinct prior to the Flood? There is no Biblical argument that I can see that requires the preservation of all living kinds. Rather we are told that Noah was to bring two of each kind on the Ark. Presumably those would be two of every kind that existed in his day and does not preclude some of the kinds that Adam presumably named having gone extinct before the Flood. YECs might say that every “kind” of organism that we know of is found in the Flood or post-Flood fossil record. Yes, that is true. Every kind we are aware of is in the fossil record and so by definition if organisms that were alive at the time of the Flood they were preserved but how can a YEC know that there were not “kinds” of animals that went extinct before the Flood and therefore we have no record of because they had no ability to be preserved? Where any of us there at the time of creation to see all the animals that were created but went extinct as soon as Adam and Eve sinned and thus did not survive to be part of those that needed to be preserved on the Ark?
Footnote 2: Some pairs of ark kinds may have gone extinct immediately without producing offspring but YECs believe that all “kind” of animals underwent rapid diversification (speciation) into many species soon after departing the Ark. But the vast majority of these species (e.g. 100 or more canines, felines and at least as many elephant species) and sometimes every species of a particular kind went extinct.
Cover image: By Mark Witton – https://peerj.com/articles/2908/, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=55123135
Editing kindly provided by MC
Joel, when I have more time I’d like to comment on several aspects of your interesting article, but for now, and for whatever it’s worth, let me mention that according to a number of fringe YECs, pterosaurs are actually still with us. The “living pterosaur” advocates, which include Don Patton, Carl Baugh, Paul Nation, Garth Guessman, David Woetzel, Cliff Paiva, and Jonathan Whitcomb (apparently no relation to the Genesis Flood coauthor), claim that multiple species of pterosaurs still soar in modern skies, with most being nocturnal and bioluminescent. Several of these individuals have mounted expeditions to Papua New Guinea (a supposed hot bed of pterosaurs) in hopes of capturing one on film if not physically. According to JW (who has written three books and scores of web postings on the subject), pterosaurs as large as 30 feet long also inhabit several other countries, including the US, where he claims hundreds of “credible sightings” have been reported. Of course, none are accompanied by credible photos or physical evidence, although JW insists that a genuine “Civil War photo” nicknamed “PTP,” shows a giant Pteranodon-like pterosaur shot down by Union soldiers. Major YEC groups have largely ignored these claims, which is understandable, since they like mainstream scientists probably regard them as too loopy to even address. However, because the reported sightings relate to larger issues about human perception, memory, confirmation bias, and fringe science in general, I took the time to write a detailed critique of the claims at:
Most of my discussion about the PTP photo was written before obtaining incontrovertible proof that the photo is fraudulent, so when I get a chance I plan to shorten it considerably.
I am beginning to think that the YECies are deliberately working to alienate and reject potential believers, anyone with independent thinking abilities.
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CK, I think a simpler explanation is that many YECs are short on independent thinking (or critical thinking) skills themselves, and that anything that potentially supports their literal reading of Genesis is worth promoting.
I think you are right, but how far can they go in twisting actual data and redacting technical papers without purposely lying? It makes me think of the scribes and Pharasees libeling Jesus, because he did miracles, which they could not.
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Interesting article. I was just wondering what did all the carnivores eat when they got off the ark?
That is a good question. This is rarely discussed in the YEC literature. Some might say that since all animals were originally herbivores maybe they still retained some of the capacity after the Flood and only later become more carnivorous. One argument I have not heard but I’m surprised has not been employed is that the reason why there are so many extinct animal “kinds” such as the pterosaurs and all synapids is that the carnivores on the ark ate them after they got off the ark. Another possible one is that rabbits bread really quickly providing carnivores with enough food until other larger prey had established larger populations and then some carnivores switched over to those larger prey.
Joel, the idea that current carnivores were still herbivores soon after the Flood, or even at the time of the Flood, doesn’t hold water, because according to almost all YECs (including AIG, CMI, and ICR), God changed animal diets at the time of the Fall, not the Flood. Also, we have quite a few fossils showing bite and claw marks, and others showing one animal in the process of eating another, etc., and according to YECs, most if not all of these would have been fossilized during the Flood.
Even the dogma that all animals were originally Created as vegetarians doesn’t work. It’s not even Biblically sound (since it says God gave plants for food, not that no animals ate any other food), and scientifically, it makes no sense. For one thing, many animals are clearly obligatory predators (sharks, spiders, rattlesnakes, etc). YECs like to talk about Panda bears using their sharp teeth to munch Bamboo shoots, but I’d love for them to explain what spider webs were originally used for (catching strawberries?), or what a deep sea angler fish originally ate (in view of it’s giant needle-like teeth and the wiggly fishing lure atop it’s head). I discuss this further in my article here: http://paleo.cc/ce/nodeath.htm
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‘YECs like to talk about Panda bears using their sharp teeth to munch Bamboo shoots,’
Pandas don’t have sharp molars. They have canines in the front, like all carnivorans (and many other mammals, including many primates), but those aren’t used for ‘munching’. The back teeth they use for crushing up bamboo are more like those of a pig.
Christine, Yes, I was just referring to Panda canine teeth, which YECs like to make a fuss about. Sorry if my term “munch” left a different impression.
Speaking of Pandas, while YECs may like their veggie diet, but Pandas present some problems for them. Besides having an obviously evolved, make-shift thumb formed from a wrist bone, it seems hard for YECs to explain how they managed to travel thousands of miles from the Ark to China, without anything close to their normal habitat or food (bamboo) along the way. Of course, one can ask the same questions about many other animals, such as the scores of different marsupials that apparently decided to migrate to Australia en masse, despite the very specialized habitats and diets of many such animals, such as Koalas, platypuses, sugar gliders and squirrel gliders (nocturnal arboreal gliding possums), not to mention the tiny, flightless, nocturnal Kiwi, which somehow hobbled all the way to New Zealand. Having no plausible explanation, some YECs have even suggested that perhaps Noah carried them there, or that God just “placed them there.” I wrote more about this at: http://paleo.cc/ce/marsupials.htm
In his “New Answers” book Paul Taylor of AIG attempted to address the problem in Chapter 11.
After beating around the bush a lot, Taylor proposes that marsupials could have hitched rides on floating vegetation mats, or made use of land bridges (without explaining why either would favor marsupials). He also proposes that a post-Flood ice age may have caused certain species to migrate in certain directions, again failing to explain why this specifically cause scores of marsupials to head for Australia. Perhaps his richest idea was this: “One proposed theory is that marsupials—because they bore their young in pouches—were able to travel farther and faster than mammals that had to stop to care for their young. They were able to establish themselves in far-flung Australia before competitors reached the continent.” Aside from other problems with this notion (again ignoring the specialized diets and habitats of many marsupials), by the same reasoning marsupials should now dominate all continents.
The one I’ve heard is that they ate the remains of all the dead animals.
Ah, thanks. I don’t remember hearing that one but it would make sense.
It still makes no sense because most carnivores won’t eat it anyway, Plus, I imagine that bodies floating and sinking over a year in the water would be in a pretty sorry shape. I guess the crabs and detrital eaters had a good time. We would also have to subtract all the remains that got fossilized as well.
It doesn’t make any sense at all.Animals could not live on flesh that had been rotting int he ocean for a year. Also, having having been at the bottom of the ocean for a year, there would be no living vegetation anywhere on the earth. Another matter is that adding seven miles of water to the water in 40 days would result n enough heat being released to boil the eater. So how did any sea creatures survive, or, indeed anything on the ark? But they don’t ask these questions because of what can only be described as doublethink–they both know and don’t know that the flood myth is not true.
Speaking of heat, the most “fleshed out” flood model among YECs is that of Walt Brown, whose “hydroplate” theory entails so much heat and violence (from multiple sources) that it would destroy all macroscopic life many time over. He denies this, but even AIG and other YECs have criticized this and many other severe problems in his model. http://paleo.cc/ce/wbrown.htm
For the flesh eaters after the Flood, you can imagine land-locked ponds or lakes of all sizes trapping every kind of creature for months or years after the Ark’s 7 months aground. As they dried up, whatever was yet alive provided the goods. So far as Australia getting its remnant marsupials of today, God could have “hopped” them across every barrier as needed, just as we see with Phillip in the Book of Acts. You needed the same to get every humming bird species back to the New World. But thanks for the very useful charts in this article. GLL
Gerhold, you still have not solved the main problems, namely, why so many marsupials headed for Australia, and how they survived along the way without their specialized environments and food. The proposed land bridges thousands of miles long don’t help much in these regards, even if there were any geologic evidence that they existed, which there isn’t. If suggesting that God “hopped” them across every barrier means is your way of proposing that God intervened in miraculous ways, there is no way to test this, or how it happened (or why). Moreover, if YECs are going to evoke ad-hoc extra-Biblical miracles whenever serious problems for their view arise (as the ICR RATE project authors recently did) it removes any pretense of “science” from “scientific creationism.” In the RATE project reports, the proposed miracles are not even logical, and create far more problems than they solve. YECs like to say that evolution is “unfalsifiable” (even though it can be falsified–as the saying goes, show us some Cambrian rabbits), but with this “invent miracles as needed” approach, clearly it is YECIsm that they won’t allow to be falsified, no matter what amount or weight of evidence is brought against it. See: http://paleo.cc/ce/RATE-project.htm .
it works fine. First this YEC does see bats as only post flood rats that took to a empty sky.
This leads to another point. these pterosaurs were also just types of a kIND that took to the air in a post FALL world. so they were not brought on the ark in that bodyplan but some land loving critter. just like bats!! Modern bats might very well be the clue to these big dudes of the old skies.
i think YEC researchers should go in that direction.
Another point to remember is that it was six pairs of clean and two of unclean creatures on the ark.
so one can say a new ratio was planned for a post flood world. within that the unclean easily could go extinct.
i on’t agree the big dudes were dinosaurs or even reptiles by the way.
Robert, I am not sure if you are serious, but if you think rats turned into bats in a few hundred years after the Flood (by evolution or any other natural means), you need to a learn more about both rats and bats. They are not only in the same family of mammals, but are completely different orders, with numerous significant anatomic and physiological differences besides the wings and flying adaptations of bats. Furthermore, the idea that bats or pterosaurs arose after the flood from rats or non-pterosaur reptiles respectively makes no sense from a geologic standpoint, since we have fossils of both groups. In the case of pterosaurs, we have thousands of fossils from hundreds of Mesozoic species, which almost all YECs consider Flood deposited. So they had to be living (and flying) before the Flood. I also don’t understand your comment about clean and unclean animals. If you’re suggesting that God viewed unclean animals as expendable and destined for extinction, then why were they taken on the Ark in the first place? Last, what do you mean by “I don’t agree the big dudes were dinosaurs or reptiles…” T.rex and Apatosaurus weren’t dinosaurs or reptiles?
I have a opinion that theropods, t-rex, were just flightless ground birrds in a spectrum of diversity. they were not reptiles or dinosaurs. there were no dinosaurs. its a wrong classification system.
So these big fliers might indeed be some reptile but only a special case.
I know they were pre flood. bats were only post flood.Yet the mechanism that created bats from rodents easily could do it these big fliers.
The clean/unclean was a new ratio for a post flood world. in the seas also. so the clean would edge out the unclean. The unclean survived but, possibly , for some went extinct. A very common thing.
Yes I think t-rex was just a toothy turkey.
there are some great youtuibe videos on theropods birdlikeness.
Robert, all birds are dinosaurs but not all dinosaurs are birds. Dinosaurs are a clade of Archosaur reptiles with a certain suite of anatomic characters. Birds are a group of feathered dinosaurs. If you want to develop new descriptions and classifications, the place to do it is in a scientific paper with lots of supporting evidence. But since you seem to have little understanding of taxonomy, biology, or paleontology, good luck with that. You again talk about bats arising from rodents, even though you’ve already been informed that bats are not rodents, nor arose from them. You say the mechanism that created bats from rodents could easily do it for these “big filers” (your term for pterosaurs). Do what, and by what mechanism? You say you know big fliers are pre-Flood, but in your earlier post you implied they arose after the Flood. Your new comments about clean and unclean animals in the sea) and extinctions are as illogical as your earlier remarks on clean/unclean animals. Many biblically “unclean” sea creatures such as fish without scales and shellfish are not extinct, but thriving.
Yes, there are some YouTube videos explaining why birds are considered theropods dinosaurs, but none supporting your silly comment that T-rex was just a toothy turkey. Perhaps you’ve misunderstood some facetious comments along those lines by Robert Bakker. Your name sounded familiar so I did a little Googling, and found that you have a history of posting outlandish and ill-informed comments on web blogs, including gems such as, “This YEC creationist says there is not and has never been a thing or process called science. Its just a careless misunderstanding of human investigation and imagination in dealing with the elements of nature.”, which you evidently posted on http://www.rationalskepticism.org. Yet you seem to accept “scientific evidence” when you think it supports YECIsm. In view of all this, and your apparent inability to receive or grasp corrections, I doubt I’ll engage you further.
We are all offering correction to each other. you must make a persuasive case.
Yes i’m saying its a wrong idea/classification to say birds are from dinosaurs. its an evolutionary error.
its the other way around. The theropod typres were just flightless ground birds. Wishbone and feathers aplenty.
I saw a great video by, helkp, the guy who they used for the jurassic movies. Horner? Youtube HOW TO TURN A CHICKEN INTO A DINOSAUR, I think,There are many. also wiki/
they are not reptiles. There were no dinosaurs but only KINDS. Having a few like traits is wrongly used to group them together.
the theropods are so like birds, including t-rex, that thats why they say birds are dinosaurs. yet they are just birds from creation week and these ‘dinos’ are a spectrum of diversity of flightless ground birds. Teeth and long tail notwithstanding.
Its a YEC creationist correction.
I don’t think science exists. i say its just people figuring things out , with a foundation of existing knowledge, and then a methodology that is careful before conclusions are drawn.
I emphasize human intelligence and not the methodology. Unlike the scientific method which says the methodology is most of the investigation and human thought is a minority of it.
My way also highlights why there is error so easily, so much, so much more without knowing it.
Science is a verb to me and not a noun.
just like in the wild claim that birds are dinosaurs!! it actually help yEC to show these critters wre not dinosaurs/no special group but just regular creatures we know and love.
Yes I use biblical boundaries, then imagination for hypothesis, then careful investigation/science.
It rings true in my heart for me. Wiki about the TERROR BIRDS of S america/N America and the Elephant brd/moas etc etc.
Wiki about fossil BIRDS with teeth. I forget theor name. Then it adds up.
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Robert, No, we are not correcting each other. I’ve been explaining basic facts about rats, bats, bird, and dinosaurs that are supported by extensive evidence and widely accepted (even by YECs), while you’ve been making outlandish claims with zero evidence, and displaying a very poor understanding of science. No, science does not minimize human thought; but evidence and sound reasoning go hand-in-hand. Extinct Terror birds, Moas, and toothed birds don’t help your case in the least, since they like other birds show extensive evidence of theropod affinity and ancestry. That early birds such as Archaeopteryx had teeth (along with other typical theropod features) only further support evolution and the dinosaurian origin of birds. You say you do careful investigation, but your posts indicate the opposite (superficial research at best), and a misplaced trust in your own musings and speculations. Indeed, you talk about what “rings true” to you, which is not a reliable way to discern anything. I agree that your “way” is highlighting many errors: but sadly, they are your own. So, I encourage you to actually do some careful research on these issues before replying again. So far you are not helping the YEC case. In fact I suspect any YECs here are cringing at your comments.